[whispersystems] Speeding up textsecure

[Omar e]

Moxie suggested posting this to the mailing list, so here I am.I have noticed (and so have all my friends) that textsecure is much slower than any other IM. I have been wondering what is the cause. This is my experience on my phone and on my friends' phones:- I type a message, then hit send- some instants pass (sometimes almost a whole second, rarely more than that)- the message appears in the conversation- after some more instants the message gets first marked as delivered and then (after some more instants) colored as sent.Now, even overlooking the fact that messages are supposed to be marked as delivered after having been colored as sent... it does take a while for messages to go through. The feel is that the messaging is not instant. At all. And if you've ever had a long conversation that goes back and forth really fast with someone, you've probably experienced the awkward feeling of desiring the app to be "just a little faster". Whatsapp is waaay faster.- You type a message, hit send- message is immediately put in the conversation, and almost instantaneously it gets all the check marks of all the possible fancy colors etc..It just feels like you're talking to people in real time.Now, why isn't textsecure the same? Is it because you have less servers than suitable? Or is it because of the encryption that the whole sending thing is slowed down? Or is it something else? Whatever it is, it needs being fixed fast. My friends who used to complain because it was "ugly" now complain because they can't set up profile pictures and because it's "so slow". (Of course they also complain about group chat, since all they get are error messages saying weird things in nerdglish. So those are the top three things to fix in my experience)Thanks

[Shankar Kulumani]

I guess I don't notice this slowness or really mind it.

I would argue that whatsapp and other IM applications also take this long
for messages to transmit but do not actually show it to the user.

For example, the message may simply appear and be marked as sent while it
is still being processed.

Also TextSecure is for asynchronous communication, so a simple solution
would be some kind of UI change that makes it feel 'faster' to the user.

Do we need the distinction for the different message states? I guess the
most important state is for a failed message. Everything else is only
extra.

Post by Omar e
Moxie suggested posting this to the mailing list, so here I am.
I have noticed (and so have all my friends) that textsecure is much slower
than any other IM. I have been wondering what is the cause. This is my
- I type a message, then hit send
- some instants pass (sometimes almost a whole second, rarely more than
that)
- the message appears in the conversation
- after some more instants the message gets first marked as delivered and
then (after some more instants) colored as sent.
Now, even overlooking the fact that messages are supposed to be marked as
delivered after having been colored as sent... it does take a while for
messages to go through. The feel is that the messaging is not instant. At
all. And if you've ever had a long conversation that goes back and forth
really fast with someone, you've probably experienced the awkward feeling
of desiring the app to be "just a little faster". Whatsapp is waaay faster.
- You type a message, hit send
- message is immediately put in the conversation, and almost
instantaneously it gets all the check marks of all the possible fancy
colors etc..
It just feels like you're talking to people in real time.
Now, why isn't textsecure the same? Is it because you have less servers
than suitable? Or is it because of the encryption that the whole sending
thing is slowed down? Or is it something else? Whatever it is, it needs
being fixed fast. My friends who used to complain because it was "ugly" now
complain because they can't set up profile pictures and because it's "so
slow". (Of course they also complain about group chat, since all they get
are error messages saying weird things in nerdglish. So those are the top
three things to fix in my experience)
Thanks

[Markus Törnqvist]

Post by Shankar Kulumani
I would argue that whatsapp and other IM applications also take this long
for messages to transmit but do not actually show it to the user.
For example, the message may simply appear and be marked as sent while it
is still being processed.

That argument doesn't fly too well with laypeople. Though I'm sure no one
wants to sell out and lie in TextSecure, so let's at least throw out some
ideas.

Post by Shankar Kulumani
Also TextSecure is for asynchronous communication, so a simple solution
would be some kind of UI change that makes it feel 'faster' to the user.

Nooooo... People do not care about any if that; this is how it works:
- "Whatsapp uses your metadata and blaa blaa blaa"
- "So what should I use?"
- "Hmm, Telegram's a potential scam and hmm.. no, there's nothing. Well,
there would be for asynchronous communication, if you wanted to send,
say, email-like letters instead."

Post by Shankar Kulumani
Do we need the distinction for the different message states? I guess the
most important state is for a failed message. Everything else is only
extra.

I used to wonder about the same before I tried Whatsapp, and now states are a
nice thing to have. Besides, it's 2015; people expect that.

Re: profile pictures. It's probably the worst of all worlds if OWS had to
host pictures of peoples' faces - as opposed to those for whom it's business -
but could there be some other solution? Thinking something in the vein of
Gravatar, but with privacy. Or can an image be safely added with the
contact's number in TS?

Post by Shankar Kulumani

Post by Omar e
Moxie suggested posting this to the mailing list, so here I am.
I have noticed (and so have all my friends) that textsecure is much slower
than any other IM. I have been wondering what is the cause. This is my
- I type a message, then hit send
- some instants pass (sometimes almost a whole second, rarely more than
that)
- the message appears in the conversation
- after some more instants the message gets first marked as delivered and
then (after some more instants) colored as sent.
Now, even overlooking the fact that messages are supposed to be marked as
delivered after having been colored as sent... it does take a while for
messages to go through. The feel is that the messaging is not instant. At
all. And if you've ever had a long conversation that goes back and forth
really fast with someone, you've probably experienced the awkward feeling
of desiring the app to be "just a little faster". Whatsapp is waaay faster.
- You type a message, hit send
- message is immediately put in the conversation, and almost
instantaneously it gets all the check marks of all the possible fancy
colors etc..
It just feels like you're talking to people in real time.
Now, why isn't textsecure the same? Is it because you have less servers
than suitable? Or is it because of the encryption that the whole sending
thing is slowed down? Or is it something else? Whatever it is, it needs
being fixed fast. My friends who used to complain because it was "ugly" now
complain because they can't set up profile pictures and because it's "so
slow". (Of course they also complain about group chat, since all they get
are error messages saying weird things in nerdglish. So those are the top
three things to fix in my experience)
Thanks

[Shankar Kulumani]

I'm still confused about this whole profile picture issue.

I thought TextSecure pulls the contact picture from the contacts on the
phone. If you want a different picture for a person just go and change it?

How is this different than Whatsapp?

Post by Markus Törnqvist

Post by Shankar Kulumani
I would argue that whatsapp and other IM applications also take this long
for messages to transmit but do not actually show it to the user.
For example, the message may simply appear and be marked as sent while it
is still being processed.

That argument doesn't fly too well with laypeople. Though I'm sure no one
wants to sell out and lie in TextSecure, so let's at least throw out some
ideas.

Post by Shankar Kulumani
Also TextSecure is for asynchronous communication, so a simple solution
would be some kind of UI change that makes it feel 'faster' to the user.

- "Whatsapp uses your metadata and blaa blaa blaa"
- "So what should I use?"
- "Hmm, Telegram's a potential scam and hmm.. no, there's nothing. Well,
there would be for asynchronous communication, if you wanted to send,
say, email-like letters instead."

Post by Shankar Kulumani
Do we need the distinction for the different message states? I guess the
most important state is for a failed message. Everything else is only
extra.

I used to wonder about the same before I tried Whatsapp, and now states are a
nice thing to have. Besides, it's 2015; people expect that.
Re: profile pictures. It's probably the worst of all worlds if OWS had to
host pictures of peoples' faces - as opposed to those for whom it's business -
but could there be some other solution? Thinking something in the vein of
Gravatar, but with privacy. Or can an image be safely added with the
contact's number in TS?

Post by Shankar Kulumani

Post by Omar e
Moxie suggested posting this to the mailing list, so here I am.
I have noticed (and so have all my friends) that textsecure is much

slower

Post by Shankar Kulumani

Post by Omar e
than any other IM. I have been wondering what is the cause. This is my
- I type a message, then hit send
- some instants pass (sometimes almost a whole second, rarely more than
that)
- the message appears in the conversation
- after some more instants the message gets first marked as delivered

and

Post by Shankar Kulumani

Post by Omar e
then (after some more instants) colored as sent.
Now, even overlooking the fact that messages are supposed to be marked

as

Post by Shankar Kulumani

Post by Omar e
delivered after having been colored as sent... it does take a while for
messages to go through. The feel is that the messaging is not instant.

At

Post by Shankar Kulumani

Post by Omar e
all. And if you've ever had a long conversation that goes back and forth
really fast with someone, you've probably experienced the awkward

feeling

Post by Shankar Kulumani

Post by Omar e
of desiring the app to be "just a little faster". Whatsapp is waaay

faster.

Post by Shankar Kulumani

Post by Omar e
- You type a message, hit send
- message is immediately put in the conversation, and almost
instantaneously it gets all the check marks of all the possible fancy
colors etc..
It just feels like you're talking to people in real time.
Now, why isn't textsecure the same? Is it because you have less servers
than suitable? Or is it because of the encryption that the whole sending
thing is slowed down? Or is it something else? Whatever it is, it needs
being fixed fast. My friends who used to complain because it was "ugly"

now

Post by Shankar Kulumani

Post by Omar e
complain because they can't set up profile pictures and because it's "so
slow". (Of course they also complain about group chat, since all they

get

Post by Shankar Kulumani

Post by Omar e
are error messages saying weird things in nerdglish. So those are the

top

Post by Shankar Kulumani

Post by Omar e
three things to fix in my experience)
Thanks

[Ted Smith]

This is definitely noticeable. Play around with TextSecure versus
Hangouts or Kik or the stock Android SMS client and you can see a *lot*
of interface lag in TextSecure. What's worse is that it somehow blocks
the interface, so it's impossible to rapid-fire SMS with people. I
notice this problem more for SMS than for TS messages, but it's still
there. I'm running totally stock, unrooted build on a Nexus 5, so it
isn't a weird configuration issue.

Post by Omar e
Moxie suggested posting this to the mailing list, so here I am.
I have noticed (and so have all my friends) that textsecure is much
slower than any other IM. I have been wondering what is the cause.
- I type a message, then hit send
- some instants pass (sometimes almost a whole second, rarely more
than that)
- the message appears in the conversation
- after some more instants the message gets first marked as delivered
and then (after some more instants) colored as sent.
Now, even overlooking the fact that messages are supposed to be marked
as delivered after having been colored as sent... it does take a while
for messages to go through. The feel is that the messaging is not
instant. At all. And if you've ever had a long conversation that goes
back and forth really fast with someone, you've probably experienced
the awkward feeling of desiring the app to be "just a little faster".
Whatsapp is waaay faster.
- You type a message, hit send
- message is immediately put in the conversation, and almost
instantaneously it gets all the check marks of all the possible fancy
colors etc..
It just feels like you're talking to people in real time.
Now, why isn't textsecure the same? Is it because you have less
servers than suitable? Or is it because of the encryption that the
whole sending thing is slowed down? Or is it something else? Whatever
it is, it needs being fixed fast. My friends who used to complain
because it was "ugly" now complain because they can't set up profile
pictures and because it's "so slow". (Of course they also complain
about group chat, since all they get are error messages saying weird
things in nerdglish. So those are the top three things to fix in my
experience)
Thanks

[Olaf Leidinger]

Post by Ted Smith
This is definitely noticeable. Play around with TextSecure versus
Hangouts or Kik or the stock Android SMS client and you can see a *lot*
of interface lag in TextSecure. What's worse is that it somehow blocks
the interface, so it's impossible to rapid-fire SMS with people. I
notice this problem more for SMS than for TS messages, but it's still
there. I'm running totally stock, unrooted build on a Nexus 5, so it
isn't a weird configuration issue.

I can confirm the delay, however the first time I really noticed it was
when running TextSecure in a Android x86 VM. I didn't notice it on my
phone, which should be faster than the VM.

[Alexander Dietrich]

Post by Omar e
- some instants pass (sometimes almost a whole second, rarely more than
that)

Wow, that is not my definition of "slow", but ok. :)

Post by Omar e
- after some more instants the message gets first marked as delivered
and then (after some more instants) colored as sent.

I haven't observed that behaviour so far. What I *did* notice is that it
seems to take significantly longer for messages to be marked as
delivered when writing to iPhone users. What kinds of phones are you and
your friends using?

Post by Omar e
they can't set up profile pictures

Personally, I prefer it to use the pictures from my phonebook.

Best regards,
Alexander

[L e]

OT a second: on whatsapp you can set your own profile picture. If I only had like 10 contacts, setting their pictures myself would be easy. When you have more than 20 people among your contacts that becomes unfeasible, which is why all messengers allow users to set their own profile pic.
And almost one second for a message to appear in the conversation after you hit send is a HUGE amount of time. It shouldn't take enough time for the user to notice, basically.
Sending messages to iphone users is a disaster, my friends on iOS never get my messages until the open the Signal. So basically, they never get my messages.

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 20:19:39 +0200
Subject: Re: [whispersystems] Speeding up textsecure

Post by Omar e
- some instants pass (sometimes almost a whole second, rarely more than
that)

Wow, that is not my definition of "slow", but ok. :)

Post by Omar e
- after some more instants the message gets first marked as delivered
and then (after some more instants) colored as sent.

I haven't observed that behaviour so far. What I *did* notice is that it
seems to take significantly longer for messages to be marked as
delivered when writing to iPhone users. What kinds of phones are you and
your friends using?

Post by Omar e
they can't set up profile pictures

Personally, I prefer it to use the pictures from my phonebook.
Best regards,
Alexander

[Steffen Märcker]

Lets split the contact picture in a new thread, since that is clearly a very different issue.

Post by L e
OT a second: on whatsapp you can set your own profile picture. If I
only had like 10 contacts, setting their pictures myself would be easy.
When you have more than 20 people among your contacts that becomes
unfeasible, which is why all messengers allow users to set their own
profile pic.
And almost one second for a message to appear in the conversation after
you hit send is a HUGE amount of time. It shouldn't take enough time
for the user to notice, basically.
Sending messages to iphone users is a disaster, my friends on iOS never
get my messages until the open the Signal. So basically, they never get
my messages.

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 20:19:39 +0200
Subject: Re: [whispersystems] Speeding up textsecure

Post by Omar e
- some instants pass (sometimes almost a whole second, rarely more

than

Post by Omar e
that)

Wow, that is not my definition of "slow", but ok. :)

Post by Omar e
- after some more instants the message gets first marked as

delivered

Post by Omar e
and then (after some more instants) colored as sent.

I haven't observed that behaviour so far. What I *did* notice is that

it

seems to take significantly longer for messages to be marked as
delivered when writing to iPhone users. What kinds of phones are you

and

your friends using?

Post by Omar e
they can't set up profile pictures

Personally, I prefer it to use the pictures from my phonebook.
Best regards,
Alexander

[L e]

Agreed. Are the developers at whispersystems planning on bringing profile pictures into textsecure? It would be good to know now if they're not plannning on it at all. And if they are, how would such feature be implemented?
I'll copy here my idea I posted in the other thread
"Another solution I see for profile pictures (to avoid them being stored on the servers, in case anyone is worried about that) is to update them only when you message someone. Say I update my profile picture. My friends won't see my new photo until I message them. With the first message I send, my new photo gets sent in the background, too (and it can be encrypted just like the photos we send now). This way it shouldn't be too slow I guess.. though yes, you wouldn't have everyone's profile pic updated to the very last second, but I don't think anyone would care about it too much anyway. After all, the contacts you talk to the most would always have pics up to date, so..."

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 20:45:09 +0200
Subject: RE: [whispersystems] Contact Pictures WAS: Speeding up textsecure
Lets split the contact picture in a new thread, since that is clearly a very different issue.

Post by L e
OT a second: on whatsapp you can set your own profile picture. If I
only had like 10 contacts, setting their pictures myself would be easy.
When you have more than 20 people among your contacts that becomes
unfeasible, which is why all messengers allow users to set their own
profile pic.
And almost one second for a message to appear in the conversation after
you hit send is a HUGE amount of time. It shouldn't take enough time
for the user to notice, basically.
Sending messages to iphone users is a disaster, my friends on iOS never
get my messages until the open the Signal. So basically, they never get
my messages.

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 20:19:39 +0200
Subject: Re: [whispersystems] Speeding up textsecure

Post by Omar e
- some instants pass (sometimes almost a whole second, rarely more

than

Post by Omar e
that)

Wow, that is not my definition of "slow", but ok. :)

Post by Omar e
- after some more instants the message gets first marked as

delivered

Post by Omar e
and then (after some more instants) colored as sent.

I haven't observed that behaviour so far. What I *did* notice is that

it

seems to take significantly longer for messages to be marked as
delivered when writing to iPhone users. What kinds of phones are you

and

your friends using?

Post by Omar e
they can't set up profile pictures

Personally, I prefer it to use the pictures from my phonebook.
Best regards,
Alexander

[Raphael Arias]

Post by L e
Agreed. Are the developers at whispersystems planning on bringing
profile pictures into textsecure? It would be good to know now if
they're not plannning on it at all. And if they are, how would such
feature be implemented?
I'll copy here my idea I posted in the other thread
"Another solution I see for profile pictures (to avoid them being stored
on the servers, in case anyone is worried about that) is to update them
only when you message someone. Say I update my profile picture. My
friends won't see my new photo until I message them. With the first
message I send, my new photo gets sent in the background, too (and it
can be encrypted just like the photos we send now). This way it
shouldn't be too slow I guess.. though yes, you wouldn't have everyone's
profile pic updated to the very last second, but I don't think anyone
would care about it too much anyway. After all, the contacts you talk to
the most would always have pics up to date, so..."

Hi,

I agree that the servers would not necessarily have to store profile
pictures for all clients indefinitely. I could also imagine that clients
can poll their friends for their profile pictures. I don't really know,
which approach is actually easier to handle for the servers, though.

Cheers,
Raphael

[Bastien Pontet]

I agree that profile pictures would be a nice addition to TS/Signal, but
definitely not a priority.
Also group pictures are already synced across members, I'm sure there's
stuff to see there.

Bastien

Post by Raphael Arias

Post by L e
Agreed. Are the developers at whispersystems planning on bringing
profile pictures into textsecure? It would be good to know now if
they're not plannning on it at all. And if they are, how would such
feature be implemented?
I'll copy here my idea I posted in the other thread
"Another solution I see for profile pictures (to avoid them being stored
on the servers, in case anyone is worried about that) is to update them
only when you message someone. Say I update my profile picture. My
friends won't see my new photo until I message them. With the first
message I send, my new photo gets sent in the background, too (and it
can be encrypted just like the photos we send now). This way it
shouldn't be too slow I guess.. though yes, you wouldn't have everyone's
profile pic updated to the very last second, but I don't think anyone
would care about it too much anyway. After all, the contacts you talk to
the most would always have pics up to date, so..."

Hi,
I agree that the servers would not necessarily have to store profile
pictures for all clients indefinitely. I could also imagine that clients
can poll their friends for their profile pictures. I don't really know,
which approach is actually easier to handle for the servers, though.
Cheers,
Raphael

[Steffen Märcker]

I also notice a significant lack in the UI (I am on version 2.11.1). Actually, I have the impression that this got worse with the last couple of updates. But this might be misleading, since I updated to lollipop recently.
However, the most annoying lags for me happen a) when switching between different conversations and b) right after sending a message. The latter sometimes needs a couple of second until the message even appears in the list above the input field.

Best, Steffen

Post by L e
OT a second: on whatsapp you can set your own profile picture. If I
only had like 10 contacts, setting their pictures myself would be easy.
When you have more than 20 people among your contacts that becomes
unfeasible, which is why all messengers allow users to set their own
profile pic.
And almost one second for a message to appear in the conversation after
you hit send is a HUGE amount of time. It shouldn't take enough time
for the user to notice, basically.
Sending messages to iphone users is a disaster, my friends on iOS never
get my messages until the open the Signal. So basically, they never get
my messages.

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 20:19:39 +0200
Subject: Re: [whispersystems] Speeding up textsecure

Post by Omar e
- some instants pass (sometimes almost a whole second, rarely more

than

Post by Omar e
that)

Wow, that is not my definition of "slow", but ok. :)

Post by Omar e
- after some more instants the message gets first marked as

delivered

Post by Omar e
and then (after some more instants) colored as sent.

I haven't observed that behaviour so far. What I *did* notice is that

it

seems to take significantly longer for messages to be marked as
delivered when writing to iPhone users. What kinds of phones are you

and

your friends using?

Post by Omar e
they can't set up profile pictures

Personally, I prefer it to use the pictures from my phonebook.
Best regards,
Alexander

[Michael Farb]

I haven't observed that behaviour so far. What I *did* notice is that it seems to take significantly longer for messages to be marked as delivered when writing to iPhone users. What kinds of phones are you and your friends using?

The slowness for delivering messages to iPhone users is built into iOS. Android OS messages can be fully retrieved from the server nearly immediately even if the app is in the background. iOS messages can only be retrieved when a user brings the app into the foreground. There isn't much can be done about that without rooting an iOS device.

Cheers,
Mike

Michael W. Farb
Research Programmer, Carnegie Mellon University CyLab
M 412-965-4725 - www.cylab.cmu.edu/safeslinger

[L e]

"The slowness for delivering messages to iPhone users is built into iOS. Android OS messages can be fully retrieved from the server nearly immediately even if the app is in the background. iOS messages can only be retrieved when a user brings the app into the foreground. There isn't much can be done about that without rooting an iOS device."
However, other apps like Whatsapp work just fine....

[Olaf Leidinger]

Am Wed, 22 Apr 2015 22:17:46 +0200

Post by L e

Post by L e
"The slowness for delivering messages to iPhone users is built into
iOS. [...] iOS messages can only be retrieved when a user brings
the app into the foreground.

However, other apps like Whatsapp work just fine....

Nope, only if the recipient has the app already in foreground. I have a
bunch of Whatsapp users on iOS for which it takes a few minutes 'till
the delivery notification appears.

[TWfromSWD]

Post by Omar e
My friends who used to complain because it was "ugly" now complain
because they can't set up profile pictures...

I don't understand. When you have set up contact pictures for your
friends everythings looks pretty. And it's a lot better than some barely
recognizable profile pictures like the kind some people use on their
Facebook profiles.
And there is no confusion when somebody changes his picture cause that
doesn't happen ;-)

[L e]

Not everyone is willing to set up pictures for EVERY contact. That would take me forever! Plus, how could I keep their pictures updated? I'd have to constantly take pictures of my friends and update them manually, tens of times. Terrible user experience.

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 20:58:58 +0200
From: ***@saufpark.at
To: ***@lists.riseup.net
Subject: RE: [whispersystems] Contact Pictures






Am 22.04.2015 um 18:48 schrieb Omar e:



My friends who used to complain because it was
"ugly" now complain because they can't set up profile
pictures...

I don't understand. When you have set up contact pictures for your
friends everythings looks pretty. And it's a lot better than some
barely recognizable profile pictures like the kind some people use
on their Facebook profiles.

And there is no confusion when somebody changes his picture cause
that doesn't happen ;-)

[Shankar Kulumani]

Is this not what Google Contacts accomplishes?

Post by L e
Not everyone is willing to set up pictures for EVERY contact. That would
take me forever! Plus, how could I keep their pictures updated? I'd have to
constantly take pictures of my friends and update them manually, tens of
times. Terrible user experience.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 20:58:58 +0200
Subject: RE: [whispersystems] Contact Pictures
My friends who used to complain because it was "ugly" now complain because
they can't set up profile pictures...
I don't understand. When you have set up contact pictures for your friends
everythings looks pretty. And it's a lot better than some barely
recognizable profile pictures like the kind some people use on their
Facebook profiles.
And there is no confusion when somebody changes his picture cause that
doesn't happen ;-)

[L e]

Google contacts? I'm not sure... are you suggesting us to use google to sync our contacts? The guys at whispersystems make flock, an app to avoid just that :/

From: ***@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 16:17:41 -0400
Subject: Re: [whispersystems] Contact Pictures
To: ***@hotmail.com
CC: ***@saufpark.at; ***@lists.riseup.net

Is this not what Google Contacts accomplishes?


On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 4:16 PM, L e <***@hotmail.com> wrote:



Not everyone is willing to set up pictures for EVERY contact. That would take me forever! Plus, how could I keep their pictures updated? I'd have to constantly take pictures of my friends and update them manually, tens of times. Terrible user experience.

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 20:58:58 +0200
From: ***@saufpark.at
To: ***@lists.riseup.net
Subject: RE: [whispersystems] Contact Pictures






Am 22.04.2015 um 18:48 schrieb Omar e:



My friends who used to complain because it was
"ugly" now complain because they can't set up profile
pictures...

I don't understand. When you have set up contact pictures for your
friends everythings looks pretty. And it's a lot better than some
barely recognizable profile pictures like the kind some people use
on their Facebook profiles.

And there is no confusion when somebody changes his picture cause
that doesn't happen ;-)

[Moxie Marlinspike]

Part of this is probably perceptual (remember that WhatsApp's equivalent
of our dark blue is their first check mark).

However, if folks are interested in improving performance on the client
side, the first thing you'd need to do is measure the existing
performance. I'd recommend using something like TimingLogger to
instrument the entire message flow, from tapping 'send' to the message
being marked as sent.

- moxie

Post by Omar e
Moxie suggested posting this to the mailing list, so here I am.
I have noticed (and so have all my friends) that textsecure is much
slower than any other IM. I have been wondering what is the cause. This
- I type a message, then hit send
- some instants pass (sometimes almost a whole second, rarely more than
that)
- the message appears in the conversation
- after some more instants the message gets first marked as delivered
and then (after some more instants) colored as sent.
Now, even overlooking the fact that messages are supposed to be marked
as delivered after having been colored as sent... it does take a while
for messages to go through. The feel is that the messaging is not
instant. At all. And if you've ever had a long conversation that goes
back and forth really fast with someone, you've probably experienced the
awkward feeling of desiring the app to be "just a little faster".
Whatsapp is waaay faster.
- You type a message, hit send
- message is immediately put in the conversation, and almost
instantaneously it gets all the check marks of all the possible fancy
colors etc..
It just feels like you're talking to people in real time.
Now, why isn't textsecure the same? Is it because you have less servers
than suitable? Or is it because of the encryption that the whole sending
thing is slowed down? Or is it something else? Whatever it is, it needs
being fixed fast. My friends who used to complain because it was "ugly"
now complain because they can't set up profile pictures and because it's
"so slow". (Of course they also complain about group chat, since all
they get are error messages saying weird things in nerdglish. So those
are the top three things to fix in my experience)
Thanks

[John Doe]

1. For what its worth, the delay is definitely not because of encryption.

Because since recent whatsapp updates, even whatsapp uses OWS encryption,
which is same libraries used in TextSecure encryption.

2. About profile pictures, since it should be visible to and updated in
every instance of whatsapp, irrespective of whether the contact is online
or not, requires photos to be stored into a server side backend, as obvious
solution.

However, as per OWS principles and right to privacy, it is better off not
to store profile pictures on a central server, atleast not in raw
unencrypted format.

A possible solution to that would be, all the profile pictures can be first
modified by applying some image processing scrambling algorithm such that
it changes entirely the content and visual image in an unidentifiable way,
and then stored on server side.

Now for every person to see that profile picture would need downloading
that scrambled image from server and to unscramble it with a common seed
and a key that is unique to every contact.

Since it requires a lot of stages and suppose 10 contacts have changed
profile picture the next time you open chat client, for each of the 10
contacts the process of unscrambling would be performed and finally you can
have a profile picture feature similar to whatsapp without compromising
privacy. However very laggy for native device to divote processing
resources.

Post by Moxie Marlinspike
Part of this is probably perceptual (remember that WhatsApp's equivalent
of our dark blue is their first check mark).
However, if folks are interested in improving performance on the client
side, the first thing you'd need to do is measure the existing
performance. I'd recommend using something like TimingLogger to
instrument the entire message flow, from tapping 'send' to the message
being marked as sent.
- moxie

Post by Omar e
Moxie suggested posting this to the mailing list, so here I am.
I have noticed (and so have all my friends) that textsecure is much
slower than any other IM. I have been wondering what is the cause. This
- I type a message, then hit send
- some instants pass (sometimes almost a whole second, rarely more than
that)
- the message appears in the conversation
- after some more instants the message gets first marked as delivered
and then (after some more instants) colored as sent.
Now, even overlooking the fact that messages are supposed to be marked
as delivered after having been colored as sent... it does take a while
for messages to go through. The feel is that the messaging is not
instant. At all. And if you've ever had a long conversation that goes
back and forth really fast with someone, you've probably experienced the
awkward feeling of desiring the app to be "just a little faster".
Whatsapp is waaay faster.
- You type a message, hit send
- message is immediately put in the conversation, and almost
instantaneously it gets all the check marks of all the possible fancy
colors etc..
It just feels like you're talking to people in real time.
Now, why isn't textsecure the same? Is it because you have less servers
than suitable? Or is it because of the encryption that the whole sending
thing is slowed down? Or is it something else? Whatever it is, it needs
being fixed fast. My friends who used to complain because it was "ugly"
now complain because they can't set up profile pictures and because it's
"so slow". (Of course they also complain about group chat, since all
they get are error messages saying weird things in nerdglish. So those
are the top three things to fix in my experience)
Thanks

--
http://www.thoughtcrime.org

[Jake McGinty]

To add on to Moxie’s comment, if anybody here has a development environment setup and is experiencing this significant lag, we’d benefit from a method trace of a send happening to see exactly what’s being called and how long it takes.

See https://developer.android.com/tools/debugging/debugging-tracing.html <https://developer.android.com/tools/debugging/debugging-tracing.html>, and the new Android Studio 1.2 release candidate makes it even easier with their new CPU profiling tab.

It’d be a great help to us to see exactly what methods are called and how long they’re taking on your devices.

Post by John Doe
1. For what its worth, the delay is definitely not because of encryption.
Because since recent whatsapp updates, even whatsapp uses OWS encryption, which is same libraries used in TextSecure encryption.
2. About profile pictures, since it should be visible to and updated in every instance of whatsapp, irrespective of whether the contact is online or not, requires photos to be stored into a server side backend, as obvious solution.
However, as per OWS principles and right to privacy, it is better off not to store profile pictures on a central server, atleast not in raw unencrypted format.
A possible solution to that would be, all the profile pictures can be first modified by applying some image processing scrambling algorithm such that it changes entirely the content and visual image in an unidentifiable way, and then stored on server side.
Now for every person to see that profile picture would need downloading that scrambled image from server and to unscramble it with a common seed and a key that is unique to every contact.
Since it requires a lot of stages and suppose 10 contacts have changed profile picture the next time you open chat client, for each of the 10 contacts the process of unscrambling would be performed and finally you can have a profile picture feature similar to whatsapp without compromising privacy. However very laggy for native device to divote processing resources.
Part of this is probably perceptual (remember that WhatsApp's equivalent
of our dark blue is their first check mark).
However, if folks are interested in improving performance on the client
side, the first thing you'd need to do is measure the existing
performance. I'd recommend using something like TimingLogger to
instrument the entire message flow, from tapping 'send' to the message
being marked as sent.
- moxie

Post by Omar e
Moxie suggested posting this to the mailing list, so here I am.
I have noticed (and so have all my friends) that textsecure is much
slower than any other IM. I have been wondering what is the cause. This
- I type a message, then hit send
- some instants pass (sometimes almost a whole second, rarely more than
that)
- the message appears in the conversation
- after some more instants the message gets first marked as delivered
and then (after some more instants) colored as sent.
Now, even overlooking the fact that messages are supposed to be marked
as delivered after having been colored as sent... it does take a while
for messages to go through. The feel is that the messaging is not
instant. At all. And if you've ever had a long conversation that goes
back and forth really fast with someone, you've probably experienced the
awkward feeling of desiring the app to be "just a little faster".
Whatsapp is waaay faster.
- You type a message, hit send
- message is immediately put in the conversation, and almost
instantaneously it gets all the check marks of all the possible fancy
colors etc..
It just feels like you're talking to people in real time.
Now, why isn't textsecure the same? Is it because you have less servers
than suitable? Or is it because of the encryption that the whole sending
thing is slowed down? Or is it something else? Whatever it is, it needs
being fixed fast. My friends who used to complain because it was "ugly"
now complain because they can't set up profile pictures and because it's
"so slow". (Of course they also complain about group chat, since all
they get are error messages saying weird things in nerdglish. So those
are the top three things to fix in my experience)
Thanks

--
http://www.thoughtcrime.org <http://www.thoughtcrime.org/>

[L e]

Another solution I see for profile pictures (to avoid them being stored on the servers, in case anyone is worried about that) is to update them only when you message someone. Say I update my profile picture. My friends won't see my new photo until I message them. With the first message I send, my new photo gets sent in the background, too (and it can be encrypted just like the photos we send now). This way it shouldn't be too slow I guess.. though yes, you wouldn't have everyone's profile pic updated to the very last second, but I don't think anyone would care about it too much anyway. After all, the contacts you talk to the most would always have pics up to date, so...

[Jake McGinty]

Let’s keep this discussion about performance/lag. Suggestions about contact photos should break off into another thread.

Post by L e
Another solution I see for profile pictures (to avoid them being stored on the servers, in case anyone is worried about that) is to update them only when you message someone. Say I update my profile picture. My friends won't see my new photo until I message them. With the first message I send, my new photo gets sent in the background, too (and it can be encrypted just like the photos we send now). This way it shouldn't be too slow I guess.. though yes, you wouldn't have everyone's profile pic updated to the very last second, but I don't think anyone would care about it too much anyway. After all, the contacts you talk to the most would always have pics up to date, so...

[Eric Mill]

The simplest solution is to adopt WhatsApp's flow, which prioritizes the
perception of speed: make the text feel sent immediately. Don't do a faded
out blue/green, and don't lock the UI. The text bubble instantly becomes
the color it should, and people can freely stack up messages rapid fire.
The light->full blue motion that's there now can become a checkmark.

There are perhaps more adventurous/original ways of doing this -- but in
the absence of an immediate strong idea, copying the way WhatsApp makes
users feel seems like a safe way to make progress.

Let’s keep this discussion about performance/lag. Suggestions about
contact photos should break off into another thread.
Another solution I see for profile pictures (to avoid them being stored on
the servers, in case anyone is worried about that) is to update them only
when you message someone. Say I update my profile picture. My friends won't
see my new photo until I message them. With the first message I send, my
new photo gets sent in the background, too (and it can be encrypted just
like the photos we send now). This way it shouldn't be too slow I guess..
though yes, you wouldn't have everyone's profile pic updated to the very
last second, but I don't think anyone would care about it too much anyway.
After all, the contacts you talk to the most would always have pics up to
date, so...

[L e]

I'm not sure how I feel about that. If textsecure was actually fast at *sending* messages, then I'd say "okay, just make the UI look like it's sent right away". The problem is that when you send many messages very fast, it takes several seconds (it can take up to one minute in my experience) for the messages to be sent. And I don't think it's a good idea to mark as sent messages that will only be sent in 20 seconds. Maybe this is because of the problem discussed in issue 981, though I don't have a deep enough knowledge to give my opinion. So first I'd speed up the actual sending, and only after that I'd improve the UI experience.

From: ***@konklone.com
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 02:00:37 -0400
To: ***@jake.su
CC: ***@hotmail.com; ***@gmail.com; ***@lists.riseup.net
Subject: Re: [whispersystems] Speeding up textsecure

The simplest solution is to adopt WhatsApp's flow, which prioritizes the perception of speed: make the text feel sent immediately. Don't do a faded out blue/green, and don't lock the UI. The text bubble instantly becomes the color it should, and people can freely stack up messages rapid fire. The light->full blue motion that's there now can become a checkmark.
There are perhaps more adventurous/original ways of doing this -- but in the absence of an immediate strong idea, copying the way WhatsApp makes users feel seems like a safe way to make progress.
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 5:12 AM, Jake McGinty <***@jake.su> wrote:
Let’s keep this discussion about performance/lag. Suggestions about contact photos should break off into another thread.
On Apr 23, 2015, at 2:36 AM, L e <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
Another solution I see for profile pictures (to avoid them being stored on the servers, in case anyone is worried about that) is to update them only when you message someone. Say I update my profile picture. My friends won't see my new photo until I message them. With the first message I send, my new photo gets sent in the background, too (and it can be encrypted just like the photos we send now). This way it shouldn't be too slow I guess.. though yes, you wouldn't have everyone's profile pic updated to the very last second, but I don't think anyone would care about it too much anyway. After all, the contacts you talk to the most would always have pics up to date, so...

[Jens B.]

Maybe that is something that could be solved using the websocket-resources
that were introduced a while ago?
As in that case only one handshake has to be performed, however I think
this is all speculation now.

I think we definitely need some bullet-proof measurements for further
argumentation.

Post by L e
I'm not sure how I feel about that. If textsecure was actually fast at
*sending* messages, then I'd say "okay, just make the UI look like it's
sent right away". The problem is that when you send many messages very
fast, it takes several seconds (it can take up to one minute in my
experience) for the messages to be sent. And I don't think it's a good idea
to mark as sent messages that will only be sent in 20 seconds. Maybe this
is because of the problem discussed in issue 981 <http://goo.gl/Fs2DLz>,
though I don't have a deep enough knowledge to give my opinion. So first
I'd speed up the actual sending, and only after that I'd improve the UI
experience.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 02:00:37 -0400
Subject: Re: [whispersystems] Speeding up textsecure
The simplest solution is to adopt WhatsApp's flow, which prioritizes the
perception of speed: make the text feel sent immediately. Don't do a faded
out blue/green, and don't lock the UI. The text bubble instantly becomes
the color it should, and people can freely stack up messages rapid fire.
The light->full blue motion that's there now can become a checkmark.
There are perhaps more adventurous/original ways of doing this -- but in
the absence of an immediate strong idea, copying the way WhatsApp makes
users feel seems like a safe way to make progress.
Let’s keep this discussion about performance/lag. Suggestions about
contact photos should break off into another thread.
Another solution I see for profile pictures (to avoid them being stored on
the servers, in case anyone is worried about that) is to update them only
when you message someone. Say I update my profile picture. My friends won't
see my new photo until I message them. With the first message I send, my
new photo gets sent in the background, too (and it can be encrypted just
like the photos we send now). This way it shouldn't be too slow I guess..
though yes, you wouldn't have everyone's profile pic updated to the very
last second, but I don't think anyone would care about it too much anyway.
After all, the contacts you talk to the most would always have pics up to
date, so...
--