[whispersystems] Addressing Frustration in the Signal Community

[Sam Lanning]

Hi All,

I have noticed that there has been some amount of frustration present
on this mailing list as of late, and I'd just like to address it as a
an observer and member of the Signal Community.

The popularity of Signal, and in particular the number of people who
want to help get involved in the project, contribute, help influence
the future of it etc... has been growing very impressively. We have
just under 1000 people on this mailing list (967 at time of writing),
multiple PRs and issues are being opened in the repos by newcomers
each day, and we have prominent people in the security community
(Edward Snowden, Various Tor People, George Torwell [1] etc...)
constantly telling everyone to use Signal.

It's clear why this is happening, Signal is the only project to have
emerged that really has the potential to put a dent in mass
surveillance since Tor, and I use the word "only" on purpose here; Yes
there are a million different privacy apps / projects that have
emerged in the last 4 years or so, and existing tools have been
improved (we have the likes of Tox, Pond, Ricochet etc... And OTR and
PGP are still going strong), but Signal has always put a very strong
focus on Usability and User Adoption, and it's these things that have
lead it to becoming as widely adopted as it is, and it's these things
we need to continue to focus on more than anything until it becomes as
popular as, for example, Whatsapp. This is why it has the potential to
put a dent in MASS surveillance.

But this is obvious to most of you, in fact it is probably these
reasons that have got you so excited about the project, and why we
have so many people getting involved in the development of Signal, and
contributing in any which way they can.

That being said, I feel that the community doesn't realise just how
big it's growing, and how that contrasts with the size of the OWS team
itself. I have so much respect for them, they are each being pulled in
a thousand different directions: development, managing + reviewing
contributions on github, responding to issues, responding to support
tickets, addressing each of the feature requests that come in (and
deciding which ones they can take on etc...), handling PR / marketing
/ social media, corresponding with large projects that want to get
involved and increase growth that drastically change the requirements
for the infrastructure, managing and growing the infrastructure
itself, managing finances and donations, general admin stuff, and of
course... this mailing list.

Go have a look at their website, to see how big their team is, and how
many people are working on development (and also understand that
Frederic Jacobs has recently moved on and the website is yet to be
updated)... Then look again at this list of things that they need to
handle among themselves.

Also consider how amazingly Moxie has run a tight ship, keeping strict
control of the direction of the project, and fighting to maintain
that. It's this strict process that has lead Signal to where it is
today. We can't let the project grow beyond this control, this strict
direction that is vital to the steady, consistent, continual growth
and success of the project, it can't be diluted... and yet growth is
the single most important thing we're currently fighting for.

This team is insane.

So I ask you, please don't get frustrated, I know it can be difficult,
and it can feel like you're shouting into the void, but we still need
you, the community still needs everyone who's currently involved to
stay as involved as they can and support one another. The
whispersystems team reads each and every one of the emails that come
through this mailing list, as insane as that may sound given the rest
of their work load... they just don't have time to respond to
everything, and they leave it up to us to do much of that.

We need to work together, as a community, to help the OWS team grow
this project into something even more fantastic then it is currently,
rather than just increasing their workload, and taking their focus
away from important development work and decision making. We each need
to take a step back, and make calculated contributions, and help to
make their life easier any way we can.

So where, as a community, can we go from here...

Well, the single most effective thing you could do, if you really want
to make a difference, and are able to work in San Francisco, consider
applying to work full time at OWS [2]. They need designers and
developers alike.

If like me, you're not in San Francisco, or even the USA, then you can
continue to contribute online. Keep the morale up and continue doing
what you're doing. Direct newcomers in the right directions (mailing
list, issues, support, docs, the unofficial server support google
group, etc...), and spread the word and try and get as many people to
adopt Signal as possible.

As a community, we can probably do with some better coordination as to
what each of us are doing, assigning ourselves development tasks,
doing code review, handling responding to people, discussing design /
feature requests, working out as a community which features / work we
feel are most critical etc... Feature requests, however well
intentioned, do fill up this mailing list quite a bit, but there
doesn't really seem like there is a proper (public) home for them at
the moment, issues should be focussed on bugs / minor feature requests
only, and sending an email to this list sends it to almost 1000
people... not ideal.

Perhaps there is the scope for some online space to handle / discuss
feature requests / work in progress in an open manner? and perhaps
allow the OWS team to be a little more transparent with the things
they are currently working on etc... We could then also incorporate
projects like the new windows phone initiative, and coordinate much
more effectively? Anyway that's just food for thought, and probably
best discussed another time.

In the meantime, I'm probably going to write up some intro page for
newcomers of the Signal community, to outline the landscape, and help
direct their efforts. I'll post in here when that's done.

Anyway, thanks for reading through this monster of an email! It was
mostly a brain dump on my part. =)

Oh! And make sure you watch the youtube video I linked below.

Cheers,
Sam

---------
Links:

[1]:

^ watch this, really!

[2]: https://whispersystems.org/workworkwork/

[Leo Francisco]

Great email. Like you said, people are so passionate about it because
they know how important the project is. I was telling someone about it
the other day about Signal and by the time I'd explained what it was
(we're talking one minute), they'd already installed it and started a
conversation.

Post by Sam Lanning
Hi All,
I have noticed that there has been some amount of frustration present
on this mailing list as of late, and I'd just like to address it as a
an observer and member of the Signal Community.
The popularity of Signal, and in particular the number of people who
want to help get involved in the project, contribute, help influence
the future of it etc... has been growing very impressively. We have
just under 1000 people on this mailing list (967 at time of writing),
multiple PRs and issues are being opened in the repos by newcomers
each day, and we have prominent people in the security community
(Edward Snowden, Various Tor People, George Torwell [1] etc...)
constantly telling everyone to use Signal.
It's clear why this is happening, Signal is the only project to have
emerged that really has the potential to put a dent in mass
surveillance since Tor, and I use the word "only" on purpose here; Yes
there are a million different privacy apps / projects that have
emerged in the last 4 years or so, and existing tools have been
improved (we have the likes of Tox, Pond, Ricochet etc... And OTR and
PGP are still going strong), but Signal has always put a very strong
focus on Usability and User Adoption, and it's these things that have
lead it to becoming as widely adopted as it is, and it's these things
we need to continue to focus on more than anything until it becomes as
popular as, for example, Whatsapp. This is why it has the potential to
put a dent in MASS surveillance.
But this is obvious to most of you, in fact it is probably these
reasons that have got you so excited about the project, and why we
have so many people getting involved in the development of Signal, and
contributing in any which way they can.
That being said, I feel that the community doesn't realise just how
big it's growing, and how that contrasts with the size of the OWS team
itself. I have so much respect for them, they are each being pulled in
a thousand different directions: development, managing + reviewing
contributions on github, responding to issues, responding to support
tickets, addressing each of the feature requests that come in (and
deciding which ones they can take on etc...), handling PR / marketing
/ social media, corresponding with large projects that want to get
involved and increase growth that drastically change the requirements
for the infrastructure, managing and growing the infrastructure
itself, managing finances and donations, general admin stuff, and of
course... this mailing list.
Go have a look at their website, to see how big their team is, and how
many people are working on development (and also understand that
Frederic Jacobs has recently moved on and the website is yet to be
updated)... Then look again at this list of things that they need to
handle among themselves.
Also consider how amazingly Moxie has run a tight ship, keeping strict
control of the direction of the project, and fighting to maintain
that. It's this strict process that has lead Signal to where it is
today. We can't let the project grow beyond this control, this strict
direction that is vital to the steady, consistent, continual growth
and success of the project, it can't be diluted... and yet growth is
the single most important thing we're currently fighting for.
This team is insane.
So I ask you, please don't get frustrated, I know it can be difficult,
and it can feel like you're shouting into the void, but we still need
you, the community still needs everyone who's currently involved to
stay as involved as they can and support one another. The
whispersystems team reads each and every one of the emails that come
through this mailing list, as insane as that may sound given the rest
of their work load... they just don't have time to respond to
everything, and they leave it up to us to do much of that.
We need to work together, as a community, to help the OWS team grow
this project into something even more fantastic then it is currently,
rather than just increasing their workload, and taking their focus
away from important development work and decision making. We each need
to take a step back, and make calculated contributions, and help to
make their life easier any way we can.
So where, as a community, can we go from here...
Well, the single most effective thing you could do, if you really want
to make a difference, and are able to work in San Francisco, consider
applying to work full time at OWS [2]. They need designers and
developers alike.
If like me, you're not in San Francisco, or even the USA, then you can
continue to contribute online. Keep the morale up and continue doing
what you're doing. Direct newcomers in the right directions (mailing
list, issues, support, docs, the unofficial server support google
group, etc...), and spread the word and try and get as many people to
adopt Signal as possible.
As a community, we can probably do with some better coordination as to
what each of us are doing, assigning ourselves development tasks,
doing code review, handling responding to people, discussing design /
feature requests, working out as a community which features / work we
feel are most critical etc... Feature requests, however well
intentioned, do fill up this mailing list quite a bit, but there
doesn't really seem like there is a proper (public) home for them at
the moment, issues should be focussed on bugs / minor feature requests
only, and sending an email to this list sends it to almost 1000
people... not ideal.
Perhaps there is the scope for some online space to handle / discuss
feature requests / work in progress in an open manner? and perhaps
allow the OWS team to be a little more transparent with the things
they are currently working on etc... We could then also incorporate
projects like the new windows phone initiative, and coordinate much
more effectively? Anyway that's just food for thought, and probably
best discussed another time.
In the meantime, I'm probably going to write up some intro page for
newcomers of the Signal community, to outline the landscape, and help
direct their efforts. I'll post in here when that's done.
Anyway, thanks for reading through this monster of an email! It was
mostly a brain dump on my part. =)
Oh! And make sure you watch the youtube video I linked below.
Cheers,
Sam
---------
[1]: http://youtu.be/c4EEa0HAqzQ
^ watch this, really!
[2]: https://whispersystems.org/workworkwork/

[Diederik de Haas]

Very well said.

Post by Sam Lanning
We need to work together, as a community, to help the OWS team grow
this project into something even more fantastic then it is currently,
rather than just increasing their workload, and taking their focus
away from important development work and decision making.

I think there are various/lots of people who want to help out, but don't know
how or where. There is also lots of confusion on what can and/or should you do
and where.

As an example, I'll tell you how I ended up here.
My phone crashed not too long ago, so I installed CM and Signal again and
wanted to get my old messages back. I had a full system backup (at least I
thought I did) and had a plain text backup from a while ago.
Then I went searching on how to get that back.

My first stop was the Signal github repo and went through the issues and the
wiki to see whether I could find my answer there. No luck. I specifically
restrained myself from opening an issue because I didn't want to burden the
OWS team with this mundane issue. [1]

I knew about the whispersystems.org website, so my next step was there ... and
I found the support link. I just checked the Signal-Android github repo and
saw it was mentioned/linked there too. It's probably a good idea to move that
part upward in the README.md [2].
It looks like it has expanded a bit/lot since I went there, but the answer to
my question is still not there. I have to say it's not the most user friendly
thing I've found on the internet ;-)
So I submitted my question there ... but still haven't received a reply (and
don't expect it anymore and it's now a moot point)

And so I ended up at this mailing list. As I have the impression that this is
(still) not the appropriate place, I haven't asked my question (yet). By
following the ML I hope to find the appropriate place where I can find the
answer or the appropriate place to ask my question. Or the answer to my
question may just 'fly by' on this ML.

I see OWS as the technical equivalent to what EFF does on the legal (and
other) front(s). And I wouldn't be surprised as they could receive the same
kind of support/help from the community as EFF has gotten [3].

As a first step I think it would be useful if we, as a community, bundle our
knowledge, expertise and enthusiasm to substantially improve the Support
section at http://support.whispersystems.org/ as that will hopefully lessen
the burden on the OWS staff, so that they can focus as much as possible at
what they do best: making awesome secure products.

I don't know if the above is indeed the case or proper cause of action and on
how and where to accomplish that, but it may be useful to discuss that.

Cheers,
Diederik

[1] I have an Open Source project myself and several people do open issues for
'simple' questions. As it's a relatively small project, I can handle it, but
it doesn't scale. But as github doesn't seem to offer a way to ask questions,
people do open issue for them, which I think is a misuse of the issues
feature.
[2] https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android/pull/5082
[3] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/04/dear-web-developers-thank-you-youre-awesome-and-wow-did-really-just-happen

PS: Can the default reply address be set to the ML and not the person you're
responding to?

[Diederik de Haas]

I have to say [the support website] is not the most user friendly
thing I've found on the internet

Correction/Addendum:
It looks like the *content* has improved quite a lot, since I first (and last
... till today) checked it.
I still don't think the navigation is good and/or the integration with the
rest of the openwhisper web site.

[Leo Francisco]

It's also lacking HTTPS on that sub domain and loads of the info is out
of date.

Post by Diederik de Haas

I have to say [the support website] is not the most user friendly
thing I've found on the internet

It looks like the *content* has improved quite a lot, since I first (and last
... till today) checked it.
I still don't think the navigation is good and/or the integration with the
rest of the openwhisper web site.

[Patrick Connolly]

Thanks Sam. Well said.

As someone who has previously been vocal with certain criticisms, I hope we
(the community) can hold ourselves a little more accountable in keeping
toxic [passive-]aggression in check :)


--------------------------------------------
Q: Why is this email [hopefully] five sentences or less? | A:
http://five.sentenc.es

*NOTE* that my emails are delayed from arriving in my inbox until 5pm daily
(Pacific Time). If urgent, please use another way of getting in touch.
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Post by Leo Francisco
It's also lacking HTTPS on that sub domain and loads of the info is out
of date.

Post by Diederik de Haas

I have to say [the support website] is not the most user friendly
thing I've found on the internet

It looks like the *content* has improved quite a lot, since I first (and

last

Post by Diederik de Haas
... till today) checked it.
I still don't think the navigation is good and/or the integration with

the

Post by Diederik de Haas
rest of the openwhisper web site.

["madde" (via whispersystems Mailing List)]

Hey folks,

very interesting Diskussion and thanks to Sam for bringing it up.

The way I See it is that this actually is caused by deeper lying issues in the community. This mailing list and the community surrounding it is a nightmare for the devs and here's why: Signal is meant for the 95 % of its users who just want a working messenger for Android and IOS.
However on this mailing list and on github you'll find the 5 % which are really trying hard to get a Messenger with tons of extra features and care way more about getting the app google-free and open to alternative platforms as well as alternative registration methods then it's in the best interest of the current dev team and the community they are aiming for (at least that's my assumption :)).

Here's how I think this can be solved. I think we basically have to split up the community and part of the infrastructure. Sounds harsh, but I think it's necessary The devs have to be able to focus on what matters most to them and what they have been doing a outstanding job for so far: A good encrypted communicator for Android and IOS. They should just stick with their current team and current infrastructure. The userbase (95 %) should just stick with what they got - The current messenger as we know it. Signal core or just signal as advertised in magazines and on the website.

Everything else - support for alternative platforms like Ubuntu or Windows or Firefox OS, as well as support for a simple Google free app (like javajens websocket version), maintaining an f-droid fork and maybe even the desktop client should be "out-sourced" to one or more communities. As I know a lot of people and organisations in Germany interested in signal I can imagine that a regional approach would be a good starting point to get a infrastructure, funding and a team up and running. Infrastructure to run our own server (communicating with the core signal server the same way the CyanogenMod server now does right now) and we could support a "unbranded" Signal fork in a way the 5 % "power users" can find us, contribute and support all the cool features that are not intended or maintainable by the core team. We could provide server capabilities for the Ubuntu and windows phone client and have a more dezentralised approach. We could also support new registration processes (like fake random phone numbers for untraceable hashes to give an alternative registration mode) - just the tons of stuff that would be a nightmare for the devs and their infrastructure to support.
The main bonus for the core devs would be that they don't have to fight various battles at the same time and that the community server could take some server load from them, the same way the cyanogenmod servers are doing it right now. If there are problems with the community servers - which might pop up, as extra features are always a pain to maintain, the core server and the 95 % core users won't really notice it - the core team don't have to mess around with all the issues. Everyone up to go with our alternative clients would know what they signed up for - and they could all go back to the official client if they want the stability back.
For this there would have to be a commitment from the core devs to split the community this way and to allow community distribution(s) comminicating with their server as well as an agreement between the community team and OWS team on what they would be allowed to do with their clients and servers (regarding branding etc).
This way we could also outsource all the support for the non-core features. You want to talk about the newest cool feature request that would make Signal even more private / discuss building problems? Go to the community forums. You need real support or want to improve the core apps and it's encryption? Go to the core team - This would clear up the mailing list here quite a lot.

I think this way we could ease the pressure on the core devs and let them focus on their main products while be more appealing to the power users and offer them features and the community (thereby support) they are asking for.

What do you think?

Cheers !

Sent from [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.ch)



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [whispersystems] Addressing Frustration in the Signal Community
Local Time: January 17 2016 1:12 am
UTC Time: January 17 2016 12:12 am
From: ***@gmail.com
To: ***@boywithwings.co.uk
CC: ***@lists.riseup.net



Thanks Sam. Well said.
As someone who has previously been vocal with certain criticisms, I hope we (the community) can hold ourselves a little more accountable in keeping toxic [passive-]aggression in check :)













--------------------------------------------

Q: Why is this email [hopefully] five sentences or less? | A: http://five.sentenc.es
NOTE that my emails are delayed from arriving in my inbox until 5pm daily (Pacific Time). If urgent, please use another way of getting in touch. [#slowwebmovement](http://www.musubimail.com/gmail_timer.html)


On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Leo Francisco <***@boywithwings.co.uk> wrote:

It's also lacking HTTPS on that sub domain and loads of the info is out
of date.

Post by Diederik de Haas

I have to say [the support website] is not the most user friendly
thing I've found on the internet

It looks like the *content* has improved quite a lot, since I first (and last
... till today) checked it.
I still don't think the navigation is good and/or the integration with the
rest of the openwhisper web site.

[Diederik de Haas]

Post by "madde" (via whispersystems Mailing List)
Here's how I think this can be solved. I think we basically have to split up
the community and part of the infrastructure. Sounds harsh, ...

I don't think it sounds harsh, I was actually thinking of the same thing.

Post by "madde" (via whispersystems Mailing List)
Everything else - support for alternative platforms like Ubuntu or Windows
or Firefox OS, as well as support for a simple Google free app (like
javajens websocket version), maintaining an f-droid fork and maybe even the
desktop client

and user support.
In lots of OSS projects, mailing lists are used for users to help each other.
And that was (one of) the reason(s) I joined this list. But I didn't ask my
issue because I had a feeling that was not the (original) intend of this
mailing list. If there was a 'signal-***@lists.whispersystems.org' (for
example), then I would have joined that one and asked my question.
Reasonable chance I wouldn't be the only one.
And make it clear on https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android and
other relevant places which mailing list is meant for which purpose.

[Raphael Arias]

Post by Diederik de Haas
and user support.
In lots of OSS projects, mailing lists are used for users to help each other.
And that was (one of) the reason(s) I joined this list. But I didn't ask my
issue because I had a feeling that was not the (original) intend of this
example), then I would have joined that one and asked my question.
Reasonable chance I wouldn't be the only one.
And make it clear on https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android and
other relevant places which mailing list is meant for which purpose.

Although I agree that there should be a clearly indicated way for user
support and discussions, I am not sure that a mailing list is the
correct place for it. It seems to me as though the average user has no
idea what a mailing list is, much less on how to use one correctly. This
is sort of evidenced by the amount of mails that come through here where
users are asking to be deleted from the list ;)

I realize I am not proposing any good alternatives here, as I am not
sure there are any without any drawbacks.

It seems clear to me, though, that any sort of support or discussion
system that is created will need to be moderated by volunteer users as
long as OWS don't find new people to relieve them of the incredible
workload.

So long,
Raphael

[Xavier Lebrun]

i am pretty sure that everyone is fully thankful to your achievement

frustation is usually the main signal of a great desire for more :)

when anyone expect a detail that seems vital for them. it is clear you
cannot take time even to look for this.
(in my case no gcm)
there is room available to check what is existing based on the incredible
contribution you are daily making to global community

it was said before.
to let every one talking about the project ecosystem maybe it is time for
a discourse forum and not only a mainling list...
maybe hosted by the project core team directly.
maybe pointed out and hosted by any other way (contributed by one
volunteer, slack, redit, google plus. ..)

Post by Patrick Connolly
Thanks Sam. Well said.
As someone who has previously been vocal with certain criticisms, I hope
we (the community) can hold ourselves a little more accountable in keeping
toxic [passive-]aggression in check :)
--------------------------------------------
http://five.sentenc.es
*NOTE* that my emails are delayed from arriving in my inbox until 5pm
daily (Pacific Time). If urgent, please use another way of getting in
touch. #slowwebmovement <http://www.musubimail.com/gmail_timer.html>

Post by Leo Francisco
It's also lacking HTTPS on that sub domain and loads of the info is out
of date.

Post by Diederik de Haas

I have to say [the support website] is not the most user friendly
thing I've found on the internet

It looks like the *content* has improved quite a lot, since I first

(and last

Post by Diederik de Haas
... till today) checked it.
I still don't think the navigation is good and/or the integration with

the

Post by Diederik de Haas
rest of the openwhisper web site.

[L e]

I think the biggest problem they have, above the community being angry or users leaving because of bugs, is the lack of developers. They have been looking for an iOS developer for months now. I really wonder why they can't find one. Maybe if we all donated they'd be able to offer a better salary and they'd find one sooner. :PBut seriously, someone should set up a crowdfunding campaign or something. They really can't keep going without developers.
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 14:27:44 +0100
From: ***@gmail.com
To: ***@gmail.com
CC: ***@boywithwings.co.uk; ***@lists.riseup.net
Subject: Re: [whispersystems] Addressing Frustration in the Signal Community

i am pretty sure that everyone is fully thankful to your achievement

frustation is usually the main signal of a great desire for more :)

when anyone expect a detail that seems vital for them. it is clear you cannot take time even to look for this.

(in my case no gcm)

there is room available to check what is existing based on the incredible contribution you are daily making to global community

it was said before.

to let every one talking about the project ecosystem maybe it is time for a discourse forum and not only a mainling list...

maybe hosted by the project core team directly.

maybe pointed out and hosted by any other way (contributed by one volunteer, slack, redit, google plus. ..)



Le 17 janv. 2016 01:13, "Patrick Connolly" <***@gmail.com> a écrit :
Thanks Sam. Well said.

As someone who has previously been vocal with certain criticisms, I hope we (the community) can hold ourselves a little more accountable in keeping toxic [passive-]aggression in check :)

--------------------------------------------Q: Why is this email [hopefully] five sentences or less? | A: http://five.sentenc.es

NOTE that my emails are delayed from arriving in my inbox until 5pm daily (Pacific Time). If urgent, please use another way of getting in touch. #slowwebmovement


On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Leo Francisco <***@boywithwings.co.uk> wrote:
It's also lacking HTTPS on that sub domain and loads of the info is out

of date.

Post by Diederik de Haas

I have to say [the support website] is not the most user friendly
thing I've found on the internet

It looks like the *content* has improved quite a lot, since I first (and last
... till today) checked it.
I still don't think the navigation is good and/or the integration with the
rest of the openwhisper web site.

["madde" (via whispersystems Mailing List)]

There is an ongoing fundraising for OWS at the freedom oft the press foundation. Feel free to donate there: https://freedom.press/bundle/encryption-tools-journalists

An incentive could be beach pics from the next winter break of core which seemed not.to have taken place this year ;)




Sent from [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.ch)



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [whispersystems] Addressing Frustration in the Signal Community
Local Time: January 17 2016 11:01 pm
UTC Time: January 17 2016 10:01 pm
From: tiagotiagot+list.riseup.net-***@gmail.com
To: ***@hotmail.com
CC: ***@gmail.com,***@gmail.com,***@boywithwings.co.uk,***@lists.riseup.net

Wouldn't a format like Patreon's work better than regular crowdfunding for an ongoing project like this?



On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 7:47 PM, L e <***@hotmail.com> wrote:



I think the biggest problem they have, above the community being angry or users leaving because of bugs, is the lack of developers. They have been looking for an iOS developer for months now. I really wonder why they can't find one. Maybe if we all donated they'd be able to offer a better salary and they'd find one sooner. :P
But seriously, someone should set up a crowdfunding campaign or something. They really can't keep going without developers.



------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 14:27:44 +0100
From: ***@gmail.com
To: ***@gmail.com
CC: ***@boywithwings.co.uk; ***@lists.riseup.net
Subject: Re: [whispersystems] Addressing Frustration in the Signal Community


i am pretty sure that everyone is fully thankful to your achievement


frustation is usually the main signal of a great desire for more :)




when anyone expect a detail that seems vital for them. it is clear you cannot take time even to look for this.
(in my case no gcm)
there is room available to check what is existing based on the incredible contribution you are daily making to global community






it was said before.
to let every one talking about the project ecosystem maybe it is time for a discourse forum and not only a mainling list...
maybe hosted by the project core team directly.
maybe pointed out and hosted by any other way (contributed by one volunteer, slack, redit, google plus. ..)





Le 17 janv. 2016 01:13, "Patrick Connolly" <***@gmail.com> a écrit :



Thanks Sam. Well said.
As someone who has previously been vocal with certain criticisms, I hope we (the community) can hold ourselves a little more accountable in keeping toxic [passive-]aggression in check :)













--------------------------------------------

Q: Why is this email [hopefully] five sentences or less? | A: http://five.sentenc.es
NOTE that my emails are delayed from arriving in my inbox until 5pm daily (Pacific Time). If urgent, please use another way of getting in touch. [#slowwebmovement](http://www.musubimail.com/gmail_timer.html)


On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Leo Francisco <***@boywithwings.co.uk> wrote:

It's also lacking HTTPS on that sub domain and loads of the info is out
of date.

Post by Diederik de Haas

I have to say [the support website] is not the most user friendly
thing I've found on the internet

It looks like the *content* has improved quite a lot, since I first (and last
... till today) checked it.
I still don't think the navigation is good and/or the integration with the
rest of the openwhisper web site.

[L e]

Regular payments would turn signal into whatsapp, so no, it wouldn't be optimal. I think they should start a crowdfunding campaign where they set an amount to reach within like a month, and promise to add some certain features within some period of time. Like, they could come up with a concept of a good looking app (with profile pictures etc..) and try to get funds. I think it would help raise money and increase the popularity of the app at the same time.

From: tiagotiagot+list.riseup.net-***@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 20:01:53 -0200
To: ***@hotmail.com
CC: ***@gmail.com; ***@gmail.com; ***@boywithwings.co.uk; ***@lists.riseup.net
Subject: Re: [whispersystems] Addressing Frustration in the Signal Community

Wouldn't a format like Patreon's work better than regular crowdfunding for an ongoing project like this?

On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 7:47 PM, L e <***@hotmail.com> wrote:



I think the biggest problem they have, above the community being angry or users leaving because of bugs, is the lack of developers. They have been looking for an iOS developer for months now. I really wonder why they can't find one. Maybe if we all donated they'd be able to offer a better salary and they'd find one sooner. :PBut seriously, someone should set up a crowdfunding campaign or something. They really can't keep going without developers.
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 14:27:44 +0100
From: ***@gmail.com
To: ***@gmail.com
CC: ***@boywithwings.co.uk; ***@lists.riseup.net
Subject: Re: [whispersystems] Addressing Frustration in the Signal Community

i am pretty sure that everyone is fully thankful to your achievement

frustation is usually the main signal of a great desire for more :)

when anyone expect a detail that seems vital for them. it is clear you cannot take time even to look for this.

(in my case no gcm)

there is room available to check what is existing based on the incredible contribution you are daily making to global community

it was said before.

to let every one talking about the project ecosystem maybe it is time for a discourse forum and not only a mainling list...

maybe hosted by the project core team directly.

maybe pointed out and hosted by any other way (contributed by one volunteer, slack, redit, google plus. ..)



Le 17 janv. 2016 01:13, "Patrick Connolly" <***@gmail.com> a écrit :
Thanks Sam. Well said.

As someone who has previously been vocal with certain criticisms, I hope we (the community) can hold ourselves a little more accountable in keeping toxic [passive-]aggression in check :)

--------------------------------------------Q: Why is this email [hopefully] five sentences or less? | A: http://five.sentenc.es

NOTE that my emails are delayed from arriving in my inbox until 5pm daily (Pacific Time). If urgent, please use another way of getting in touch. #slowwebmovement


On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Leo Francisco <***@boywithwings.co.uk> wrote:
It's also lacking HTTPS on that sub domain and loads of the info is out

of date.

Post by Diederik de Haas

I have to say [the support website] is not the most user friendly
thing I've found on the internet

It looks like the *content* has improved quite a lot, since I first (and last
... till today) checked it.
I still don't think the navigation is good and/or the integration with the
rest of the openwhisper web site.

[Xavier Lebrun]

i think he says that if someone make a regular payment to signal

it isbthe same as the annual fee to whatsapp...

Le 18 janv. 2016 17:55, "TiagoTiago" <

Why exactly would ongoing automatic funding make it "into Whatsapp"? And
what exactly do you mean by that?

Post by L e
Regular payments would turn signal into whatsapp, so no, it wouldn't be
optimal. I think they should start a crowdfunding campaign where they set
an amount to reach within like a month, and promise to add some certain
features within some period of time. Like, they could come up with a
concept of a good looking app (with profile pictures etc..) and try to get
funds. I think it would help raise money and increase the popularity of the
app at the same time.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 20:01:53 -0200
Subject: Re: [whispersystems] Addressing Frustration in the Signal Community
Wouldn't a format like Patreon's work better than regular crowdfunding
for an ongoing project like this?
I think the biggest problem they have, above the community being angry or
users leaving because of bugs, is the lack of developers. They have been
looking for an iOS developer for months now. I really wonder why they can't
find one. Maybe if we all donated they'd be able to offer a better salary
and they'd find one sooner. :P
But seriously, someone should set up a crowdfunding campaign or
something. They really can't keep going without developers.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 14:27:44 +0100
Subject: Re: [whispersystems] Addressing Frustration in the Signal Community
i am pretty sure that everyone is fully thankful to your achievement
frustation is usually the main signal of a great desire for more :)
when anyone expect a detail that seems vital for them. it is clear you
cannot take time even to look for this.
(in my case no gcm)
there is room available to check what is existing based on the incredible
contribution you are daily making to global community
it was said before.
to let every one talking about the project ecosystem maybe it is time
for a discourse forum and not only a mainling list...
maybe hosted by the project core team directly.
maybe pointed out and hosted by any other way (contributed by one
volunteer, slack, redit, google plus. ..)
Thanks Sam. Well said.
As someone who has previously been vocal with certain criticisms, I hope
we (the community) can hold ourselves a little more accountable in keeping
toxic [passive-]aggression in check :)
--------------------------------------------
http://five.sentenc.es
*NOTE* that my emails are delayed from arriving in my inbox until 5pm
daily (Pacific Time). If urgent, please use another way of getting in
touch. #slowwebmovement <http://www.musubimail.com/gmail_timer.html>
It's also lacking HTTPS on that sub domain and loads of the info is out
of date.

Post by Diederik de Haas

I have to say [the support website] is not the most user friendly
thing I've found on the internet

It looks like the *content* has improved quite a lot, since I first

(and last

Post by Diederik de Haas
... till today) checked it.
I still don't think the navigation is good and/or the integration with

the

Post by Diederik de Haas
rest of the openwhisper web site.

[Raphael Arias]

Only whatsapp is going to be completely "free" now [0].

[0] https://blog.whatsapp.com/615/Making-WhatsApp-free-and-more-useful

Post by Xavier Lebrun
i think he says that if someone make a regular payment to signal
it isbthe same as the annual fee to whatsapp...

[L e]

I had no idea it was going to be free! I guess I have no more reasons to avoid WhatsApp now that they don't ask for my credit card anymore. Yay! They have signal's encryption, by the way

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 18:00:39 +0100
Subject: Re: [whispersystems] Addressing Frustration in the Signal Community
Only whatsapp is going to be completely "free" now [0].
[0] https://blog.whatsapp.com/615/Making-WhatsApp-free-and-more-useful

Post by Xavier Lebrun
i think he says that if someone make a regular payment to signal
it isbthe same as the annual fee to whatsapp...

[Jean-Philippe Cugnet]

Post by L e
I had no idea it was going to be free! I guess I have no more reasons to avoid WhatsApp now that they don't ask for my credit card anymore. Yay! They have signal's encryption, by the way

That’s not the case with the iOS client, and for the Android client you cannot verify that since the app is not open source.

[L e]

Moxie himself challenged the creator of telegram to decrypt his WhatsApp chats if I recall correctly (it happened on Twitter). So that's enough for me... If you really want to go full paranoid then you should also check the binaries but I'm not into that :)

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 18:21:20 +0100
Subject: Re: [whispersystems] Addressing Frustration in the Signal Community

Post by L e
I had no idea it was going to be free! I guess I have no more reasons to avoid WhatsApp now that they don't ask for my credit card anymore. Yay! They have signal's encryption, by the way

That’s not the case with the iOS client, and for the Android client you cannot verify that since the app is not open source.

[Johan Wevers]

Post by L e
Moxie himself challenged the creator of telegram to decrypt his WhatsApp
chats if I recall correctly

Well, Telegram definitely has some snake-oil stench on its encryption.
However, in Brussel some terrorists were arrested and the police said it
was due to Whatsapp messages so I would not dare to be sure.

Post by L e
If you really want to go full paranoid then you should also
check the binaries but I'm not into that :)

No need for that on Android, with apktool and jadx you can decompile
apk's. Whatsapp does sonme obfuscation: you get things like

class a {
void a.a() { }
}

so names are not really helpfull but it's still better than analysing
assembler.

[Noir]

Post by Johan Wevers
However, in Brussel some terrorists were arrested and the police said

it was due to Whatsapp messages so I would not dare to be sure.

This sounds very interesting, do you have a source for that?

Post by Johan Wevers

Post by L e
Moxie himself challenged the creator of telegram to decrypt his WhatsApp
chats if I recall correctly

Well, Telegram definitely has some snake-oil stench on its encryption.
However, in Brussel some terrorists were arrested and the police said it
was due to Whatsapp messages so I would not dare to be sure.

Post by L e
If you really want to go full paranoid then you should also
check the binaries but I'm not into that :)

No need for that on Android, with apktool and jadx you can decompile
apk's. Whatsapp does sonme obfuscation: you get things like
class a {
void a.a() { }
}
so names are not really helpfull but it's still better than analysing
assembler.

[Sam Lanning]

I think it would be a good idea to stop this thread of conversation about
WhatsApp now. It has gone completely off topic... (and I'm not sure that
many of the 1000 or mailing list subscribers appreciate their inbox being
filled up with it).

I fear that many people will have overlooked the message I sent a little
while back regarding the new wiki page for example, in the torrent of
chatter this thread has become.

If you want to continue discussing WhatsApp like so, then consider starting
a new thread... and think about whether it's really appropriate for this
mailing list.

Cheers,
Sam.

Post by Noir

Post by Johan Wevers
However, in Brussel some terrorists were arrested and the police said

it was due to Whatsapp messages so I would not dare to be sure.
This sounds very interesting, do you have a source for that?

Post by Johan Wevers

Post by L e
Moxie himself challenged the creator of telegram to decrypt his WhatsApp
chats if I recall correctly

Well, Telegram definitely has some snake-oil stench on its encryption.
However, in Brussel some terrorists were arrested and the police said it
was due to Whatsapp messages so I would not dare to be sure.

Post by L e
If you really want to go full paranoid then you should also
check the binaries but I'm not into that :)

No need for that on Android, with apktool and jadx you can decompile
apk's. Whatsapp does sonme obfuscation: you get things like
class a {
void a.a() { }
}
so names are not really helpfull but it's still better than analysing
assembler.

[johanw]

Post by Noir

Post by Johan Wevers
However, in Brussel some terrorists were arrested and the police said

it was due to Whatsapp messages so I would not dare to be sure.
This sounds very interesting, do you have a source for that?

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/intercepted-whatsapp-messages-led-to-belgian-terror-arrests/

[Max Spliethöver]

@Sam. Thanks for the initial wiki page on GitHub. But I'm not pretty sure
that a GitHub wiki is the right place for something like (big OSS project)
because as far as I know git wikis are very hard to moderate. No PRs, etc.
How would you manage collaborative work there?
But as an initial starting point where only one person is working on I
think it's fine. As a long term, collaborative solution I'm not so sure
about that.

Post by Johan Wevers
However, in Brussel some terrorists were arrested and the police said
it was due to Whatsapp messages so I would not dare to be sure.

Post by Noir
This sounds very interesting, do you have a source for that?

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/intercepted-whatsapp-messages-led-to-belgian-terror-arrests/
--
Met vriendelijke groet/With kind regards,
Johan Wevers

[Sam Lanning]

I agree, we probably want to move it to somewhere more concrete /
easier to moderate when we're happy with the first version...

Perhaps there is the scope for a repository (possibly one hosted by
whispersystems) called community-docs or something like that... where
PRs can be submitted against it etc... and they can pick a small set
of moderators (in addition to the existing staff) to merge PRs etc...

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:18 AM, Max Spliethöver

Post by Max Spliethöver
@Sam. Thanks for the initial wiki page on GitHub. But I'm not pretty sure
that a GitHub wiki is the right place for something like (big OSS project)
because as far as I know git wikis are very hard to moderate. No PRs, etc.
How would you manage collaborative work there?
But as an initial starting point where only one person is working on I think
it's fine. As a long term, collaborative solution I'm not so sure about
that.

Post by johanw

Post by Noir

Post by Johan Wevers
However, in Brussel some terrorists were arrested and the police said

it was due to Whatsapp messages so I would not dare to be sure.
This sounds very interesting, do you have a source for that?

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/intercepted-whatsapp-messages-led-to-belgian-terror-arrests/
--
Met vriendelijke groet/With kind regards,
Johan Wevers

--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Maximilian Spliethöver
P Please consider the environment before printing this email.

[Max Spliethöver]

Yes, that would not only be more comfortable for the users and editors but
also for the devs (like I already mentioned a place like this would maybe
take a lot of pressure form the devs because it would minify the workload
by a lot).

Post by Sam Lanning
I agree, we probably want to move it to somewhere more concrete /
easier to moderate when we're happy with the first version...
Perhaps there is the scope for a repository (possibly one hosted by
whispersystems) called community-docs or something like that... where
PRs can be submitted against it etc... and they can pick a small set
of moderators (in addition to the existing staff) to merge PRs etc...
On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:18 AM, Max Spliethöver

Post by Max Spliethöver
@Sam. Thanks for the initial wiki page on GitHub. But I'm not pretty sure
that a GitHub wiki is the right place for something like (big OSS

project)

Post by Max Spliethöver
because as far as I know git wikis are very hard to moderate. No PRs,

etc.

Post by Max Spliethöver
How would you manage collaborative work there?
But as an initial starting point where only one person is working on I

think

Post by Max Spliethöver
it's fine. As a long term, collaborative solution I'm not so sure about
that.

Post by johanw

Post by Noir

Post by Johan Wevers
However, in Brussel some terrorists were arrested and the police said

it was due to Whatsapp messages so I would not dare to be sure.
This sounds very interesting, do you have a source for that?

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/intercepted-whatsapp-messages-led-to-belgian-terror-arrests/

Post by Max Spliethöver

Post by johanw
--
Met vriendelijke groet/With kind regards,
Johan Wevers

--
Mit freundlichen GrÌßen
Maximilian Spliethöver
P Please consider the environment before printing this email.

["madde" (via whispersystems Mailing List)]

Don't feed the troll

Sent from [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.ch)



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [whispersystems] Addressing Frustration in the Signal Community
Local Time: January 18 2016 6:21 pm
UTC Time: January 18 2016 5:21 pm

I had no idea it was going to be free! I guess I have no more reasons to avoid WhatsApp now that they don't ask for my credit card anymore. Yay! They have signal's encryption, by the way

That’s not the case with the iOS client, and for the Android client you cannot verify that since the app is not open source.

[L e]

Moxie himself challenged the creator of telegram to decrypt his WhatsApp chats if I recall correctly (it happened on Twitter). So that's enough for me... If you really want to go full paranoid then you should also check the binaries but I'm not into that :)

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 18:21:20 +0100
Subject: Re: [whispersystems] Addressing Frustration in the Signal Community

Post by L e
I had no idea it was going to be free! I guess I have no more reasons to avoid WhatsApp now that they don't ask for my credit card anymore. Yay! They have signal's encryption, by the way

That’s not the case with the iOS client, and for the Android client you cannot verify that since the app is not open source.

[Xavier Lebrun]

may you ask yourself this question :

why do you spend time promoting whatsapp quality on signal open source
software dev mainling list ?

on a brainstorming thread about the signal community and ecosystem
organisation.

Post by L e
Moxie himself challenged the creator of telegram to decrypt his WhatsApp
chats if I recall correctly (it happened on Twitter). So that's enough for
me... If you really want to go full paranoid then you should also check the
binaries but I'm not into that :)

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 18:21:20 +0100
Subject: Re: [whispersystems] Addressing Frustration in the Signal

Community

Post by L e
I had no idea it was going to be free! I guess I have no more reasons

to avoid WhatsApp now that they don't ask for my credit card anymore. Yay!
They have signal's encryption, by the way

That’s not the case with the iOS client, and for the Android client you

cannot verify that since the app is not open source.

[Max Spliethöver]

I think we are slightly drifting off topic here. To get involved in the
(original) discussion here: I think an important step would be to somewhat
reorganize the system that is build around the Signal community. Like
already mentioned in this thread there is a clear need for a user support
forum, for users that experience problems. Something like this could also
be moderated by an additional employee or even some voluntary users from
the community itself. This thing alone would already take away a lot of
pressure from the core team aka. developers.
Another important step in my opinion would be to be more transparent. I
think that if you are working on an OSS project where other users are able
to participate, there should be some sort of road map. This could avoid
duplicated feature requests and the GitHub Issue tracker doesn't seem to
fit this purpose really well, mainly because it doesn't seem to be that
well moderated. This moderation is again nothing that the core team should
do but a separate person (maybe again a volunteer or extra employee).
The last thing that came into my mind while reading this thread is that
there is no clear line/guidance on what way of communication fits which
purpose. They just seem to exist. I'm not even sure that this topic is
meant to be discussed in this mailing list. That's why so many feature
request, false issue reports or support questions come in in everyone of
those services which again creates a shitload of work for the developers.

All the above is only my point of view on how the system/organisation
around the Signal community could be done better and more efficient for
everyone (incl. users, developers, etc.).

Enjoy your evening.

Post by Xavier Lebrun
why do you spend time promoting whatsapp quality on signal open source
software dev mainling list ?
on a brainstorming thread about the signal community and ecosystem
organisation.

Post by L e
Moxie himself challenged the creator of telegram to decrypt his WhatsApp
chats if I recall correctly (it happened on Twitter). So that's enough for
me... If you really want to go full paranoid then you should also check the
binaries but I'm not into that :)

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 18:21:20 +0100
Subject: Re: [whispersystems] Addressing Frustration in the Signal

Community

Post by L e
I had no idea it was going to be free! I guess I have no more reasons

to avoid WhatsApp now that they don't ask for my credit card anymore. Yay!
They have signal's encryption, by the way

That’s not the case with the iOS client, and for the Android client you

cannot verify that since the app is not open source.

[L e]

I'm not promoting whatsapp any more than the founder of whispersystems himself. There's a blog post about whatsapp adopting their encryption on their blog, does that mean they're sabotaging themselves? I trust moxie and if he says that our communications are safe though whatsapp, I trust him. Good thing that they didn't want to reveal information in the Brazil case, but also good thing that terrorists were stopped (and maybe they were communicating with iOS anyway). Anyway, I'm not a fan of terrorism. If we can have an app that protects normal users but "breaks the rules" for terrorism, so be it.We're going off topic anyway so this is my last email about this

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 18:37:20 +0100
From: ***@gmail.com
To: ***@hotmail.com
CC: ***@lists.riseup.net; ***@in.tum.de; jean-***@cugnet.eu
Subject: RE: [whispersystems] Addressing Frustration in the Signal Community

may you ask yourself this question :
why do you spend time promoting whatsapp quality on signal open source software dev mainling list ?
on a brainstorming thread about the signal community and ecosystem organisation.

Le 18 janv. 2016 18:27, "L e" <***@hotmail.com> a écrit :



Moxie himself challenged the creator of telegram to decrypt his WhatsApp chats if I recall correctly (it happened on Twitter). So that's enough for me... If you really want to go full paranoid then you should also check the binaries but I'm not into that :)

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 18:21:20 +0100
Subject: Re: [whispersystems] Addressing Frustration in the Signal Community

Post by L e
I had no idea it was going to be free! I guess I have no more reasons to avoid WhatsApp now that they don't ask for my credit card anymore. Yay! They have signal's encryption, by the way

That’s not the case with the iOS client, and for the Android client you cannot verify that since the app is not open source.

[Johan Wevers]

Post by L e
If we can have an app that protects normal users but "breaks the rules"
for terrorism, so be it.

No, that means the app is broken and it will be used to decrypt the
communication not only for terrorists but for weed dealers, tax evaders
and copyright infringers too.

[Steffen Märcker]

Maybe a good reason not to use whatsapp is that they are obviously able to
turn of encryption at will (server-side). Given that there is no indicator
that a conversation is encrypted or not, they're simple not there yet.

Post by L e
I had no idea it was going to be free! I guess I have no more reasons to
avoid WhatsApp now that they don't ask for my credit card anymore. Yay!
They have signal's encryption, by the way

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 18:00:39 +0100
Subject: Re: [whispersystems] Addressing Frustration in the Signal Community
Only whatsapp is going to be completely "free" now [0].
[0] https://blog.whatsapp.com/615/Making-WhatsApp-free-and-more-useful

Post by Xavier Lebrun
i think he says that if someone make a regular payment to signal
it isbthe same as the annual fee to whatsapp...

[Xavier Lebrun]

personnally i agree with you
Le 18 janv. 2016 18:02, "TiagoTiago" <

It's a donation, fully optional; the service and the app would remain free.

Post by Xavier Lebrun
i think he says that if someone make a regular payment to signal
it isbthe same as the annual fee to whatsapp...
Le 18 janv. 2016 17:55, "TiagoTiago" <

Why exactly would ongoing automatic funding make it "into Whatsapp"? And
what exactly do you mean by that?

Post by L e
Regular payments would turn signal into whatsapp, so no, it wouldn't be
optimal. I think they should start a crowdfunding campaign where they set
an amount to reach within like a month, and promise to add some certain
features within some period of time. Like, they could come up with a
concept of a good looking app (with profile pictures etc..) and try to get
funds. I think it would help raise money and increase the popularity of the
app at the same time.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 20:01:53 -0200
Subject: Re: [whispersystems] Addressing Frustration in the Signal Community
Wouldn't a format like Patreon's work better than regular crowdfunding
for an ongoing project like this?
I think the biggest problem they have, above the community being angry
or users leaving because of bugs, is the lack of developers. They have been
looking for an iOS developer for months now. I really wonder why they can't
find one. Maybe if we all donated they'd be able to offer a better salary
and they'd find one sooner. :P
But seriously, someone should set up a crowdfunding campaign or
something. They really can't keep going without developers.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 14:27:44 +0100
Subject: Re: [whispersystems] Addressing Frustration in the Signal Community
i am pretty sure that everyone is fully thankful to your achievement
frustation is usually the main signal of a great desire for more :)
when anyone expect a detail that seems vital for them. it is clear you
cannot take time even to look for this.
(in my case no gcm)
there is room available to check what is existing based on the
incredible contribution you are daily making to global community
it was said before.
to let every one talking about the project ecosystem maybe it is time
for a discourse forum and not only a mainling list...
maybe hosted by the project core team directly.
maybe pointed out and hosted by any other way (contributed by one
volunteer, slack, redit, google plus. ..)
Le 17 janv. 2016 01:13, "Patrick Connolly" <
Thanks Sam. Well said.
As someone who has previously been vocal with certain criticisms, I
hope we (the community) can hold ourselves a little more accountable in
keeping toxic [passive-]aggression in check :)
--------------------------------------------
http://five.sentenc.es
*NOTE* that my emails are delayed from arriving in my inbox until 5pm
daily (Pacific Time). If urgent, please use another way of getting in
touch. #slowwebmovement <http://www.musubimail.com/gmail_timer.html>
On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Leo Francisco <
It's also lacking HTTPS on that sub domain and loads of the info is out
of date.

Post by Diederik de Haas

I have to say [the support website] is not the most user friendly
thing I've found on the internet

It looks like the *content* has improved quite a lot, since I first

(and last

Post by Diederik de Haas
... till today) checked it.
I still don't think the navigation is good and/or the integration

with the

Post by Diederik de Haas
rest of the openwhisper web site.

[Sam Lanning]

I have started work on a wiki page for newcomers:
https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android/wiki/Welcome-to-the-Signal-Community

There's lots of writing still to do for it, but i've fleshed out most
of the structure. I'm not happy with all of the phrasing yet either.

I chose to put it in the Signal-Android wiki for now as it seems like
the most full wiki of the 3 main repos.

Please feel free to help flesh out this page a little bit more!

We probably also want to start linking into this article as much as
possible? I.e. from the various README and CONTRIBUTING files etc...

Post by Sam Lanning
Hi All,
I have noticed that there has been some amount of frustration present
on this mailing list as of late, and I'd just like to address it as a
an observer and member of the Signal Community.
The popularity of Signal, and in particular the number of people who
want to help get involved in the project, contribute, help influence
the future of it etc... has been growing very impressively. We have
just under 1000 people on this mailing list (967 at time of writing),
multiple PRs and issues are being opened in the repos by newcomers
each day, and we have prominent people in the security community
(Edward Snowden, Various Tor People, George Torwell [1] etc...)
constantly telling everyone to use Signal.
It's clear why this is happening, Signal is the only project to have
emerged that really has the potential to put a dent in mass
surveillance since Tor, and I use the word "only" on purpose here; Yes
there are a million different privacy apps / projects that have
emerged in the last 4 years or so, and existing tools have been
improved (we have the likes of Tox, Pond, Ricochet etc... And OTR and
PGP are still going strong), but Signal has always put a very strong
focus on Usability and User Adoption, and it's these things that have
lead it to becoming as widely adopted as it is, and it's these things
we need to continue to focus on more than anything until it becomes as
popular as, for example, Whatsapp. This is why it has the potential to
put a dent in MASS surveillance.
But this is obvious to most of you, in fact it is probably these
reasons that have got you so excited about the project, and why we
have so many people getting involved in the development of Signal, and
contributing in any which way they can.
That being said, I feel that the community doesn't realise just how
big it's growing, and how that contrasts with the size of the OWS team
itself. I have so much respect for them, they are each being pulled in
a thousand different directions: development, managing + reviewing
contributions on github, responding to issues, responding to support
tickets, addressing each of the feature requests that come in (and
deciding which ones they can take on etc...), handling PR / marketing
/ social media, corresponding with large projects that want to get
involved and increase growth that drastically change the requirements
for the infrastructure, managing and growing the infrastructure
itself, managing finances and donations, general admin stuff, and of
course... this mailing list.
Go have a look at their website, to see how big their team is, and how
many people are working on development (and also understand that
Frederic Jacobs has recently moved on and the website is yet to be
updated)... Then look again at this list of things that they need to
handle among themselves.
Also consider how amazingly Moxie has run a tight ship, keeping strict
control of the direction of the project, and fighting to maintain
that. It's this strict process that has lead Signal to where it is
today. We can't let the project grow beyond this control, this strict
direction that is vital to the steady, consistent, continual growth
and success of the project, it can't be diluted... and yet growth is
the single most important thing we're currently fighting for.
This team is insane.
So I ask you, please don't get frustrated, I know it can be difficult,
and it can feel like you're shouting into the void, but we still need
you, the community still needs everyone who's currently involved to
stay as involved as they can and support one another. The
whispersystems team reads each and every one of the emails that come
through this mailing list, as insane as that may sound given the rest
of their work load... they just don't have time to respond to
everything, and they leave it up to us to do much of that.
We need to work together, as a community, to help the OWS team grow
this project into something even more fantastic then it is currently,
rather than just increasing their workload, and taking their focus
away from important development work and decision making. We each need
to take a step back, and make calculated contributions, and help to
make their life easier any way we can.
So where, as a community, can we go from here...
Well, the single most effective thing you could do, if you really want
to make a difference, and are able to work in San Francisco, consider
applying to work full time at OWS [2]. They need designers and
developers alike.
If like me, you're not in San Francisco, or even the USA, then you can
continue to contribute online. Keep the morale up and continue doing
what you're doing. Direct newcomers in the right directions (mailing
list, issues, support, docs, the unofficial server support google
group, etc...), and spread the word and try and get as many people to
adopt Signal as possible.
As a community, we can probably do with some better coordination as to
what each of us are doing, assigning ourselves development tasks,
doing code review, handling responding to people, discussing design /
feature requests, working out as a community which features / work we
feel are most critical etc... Feature requests, however well
intentioned, do fill up this mailing list quite a bit, but there
doesn't really seem like there is a proper (public) home for them at
the moment, issues should be focussed on bugs / minor feature requests
only, and sending an email to this list sends it to almost 1000
people... not ideal.
Perhaps there is the scope for some online space to handle / discuss
feature requests / work in progress in an open manner? and perhaps
allow the OWS team to be a little more transparent with the things
they are currently working on etc... We could then also incorporate
projects like the new windows phone initiative, and coordinate much
more effectively? Anyway that's just food for thought, and probably
best discussed another time.
In the meantime, I'm probably going to write up some intro page for
newcomers of the Signal community, to outline the landscape, and help
direct their efforts. I'll post in here when that's done.
Anyway, thanks for reading through this monster of an email! It was
mostly a brain dump on my part. =)
Oh! And make sure you watch the youtube video I linked below.
Cheers,
Sam
---------
[1]: http://youtu.be/c4EEa0HAqzQ
^ watch this, really!
[2]: https://whispersystems.org/workworkwork/

[Sam Lanning]

Also some of you may not have seen the poster that myself and @yawnbox
worked on together at 32c3:

https://github.com/samlanning/art/blob/master/whispersystems/christmas-signal/poster.pdf

Feel free to contribute to promotional / PR artwork too! :-D

Post by Sam Lanning
https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android/wiki/Welcome-to-the-Signal-Community
There's lots of writing still to do for it, but i've fleshed out most
of the structure. I'm not happy with all of the phrasing yet either.
I chose to put it in the Signal-Android wiki for now as it seems like
the most full wiki of the 3 main repos.
Please feel free to help flesh out this page a little bit more!
We probably also want to start linking into this article as much as
possible? I.e. from the various README and CONTRIBUTING files etc...

[m***@mail.com]

Le must be kidding. He/she ignores about the concept of trust in a crypto-scenario and forgets the lack of an international agreement about "terrorist" definition.
------ Mensaje original------De: TiagoTiagoFecha: lun., 18 de ene. de 2016 23:48Para: Johan Wevers;CC: whispersystems;Asunto:Re: [whispersystems] Addressing Frustration in the Signal Community
Don't forget whistleblowers; Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists; journalists working to expose people with a lot of money that were screwing customers/the population; and so on.

Post by L e
If we can have an app that protects normal users but "breaks the rules"
for terrorism, so be it.

No, that means the app is broken and it will be used to decrypt the
communication not only for terrorists but for weed dealers, tax evaders
and copyright infringers too.

--
Met vriendelijke groet,

Johan Wevers

[b***@posteo.de]

I would find it very useful to replace this mailing list with a proper
community forum, for example using Discourse [1]. It is open source and
works very nicely, for example have a look at the Fairphone forum [2].
If placed and advertised well, so people find it, this could channel a
lot of general questions and emotions, making the community less
frustrated and the github issue tracker less misused. Important topics
could be pinned and in general people can find topics more easily. What
do you think?

And I agree that an up-to-date milestone overview would be super useful.


The wiki page is certainly a good idea, but I wouldn't make a new github
repository for this, rather extend the FAQ on the website. That's where
most people land I guess, and where non-tech users aren't scared away.
I'm not quite sure how this works, but the website is maintained on
github, so couldn't we just make pull requests for updating the FAQs in
such a way?

Links:
------
[1] http://www.discourse.org/
[2] http://forum.fairphone.com/